I've thought highly of Nancy's work for many years now, and was thrilled when Nancy gave Flashing Swords "Tal's Tale" for reprint. Judging by the overwhelmingly positive attention, apparently readers have been thrilled as well.

Nancy's been writing sword-and-sorcery and heroic fiction and seasoning all her fantasy, even work-for-hire, with the right kinds of spices. I'm hoping the coming years will see her gain more of the recognition she deserves. It was a pleasure to talk with her again about her work and sword-and-sorcery in general.

The Flashing Swords reprint of "Tal's Tale" has garnered quite a lot of positive attention from 'zine readers. What can you tell us about its creation and setting? Is there anything special that led to its creation? And could you catch the rest of us up on other Nancy Varian Norse-flavored writing?

"Tal's Tale" has always been "the penance tale" for me -- as in, the author doing penance. I'd been grocery shopping one afternoon and at the check out I stood waiting for the week's stuff to be totaled up so I could tote it out. While the checker, a pretty youngster who looked like she was about high school age, was ringing up, her manager came to the register, ostensibly to tell her something about work. While he talked, he stroked her hair, tickled her neck, and I saw that child's face turn to stone. It was evident that this had happened before, and that she felt trapped.

Same old story: take the crap or lose the job. The girl must have been taking the crap before then, and now she was taking it publicly.

I should have said something like, "Keep your hands to yourself, buster." But I didn't, no one anywhere near did; everyone went about their business as though nothing had happened. The manager went off smirking, and I went home thinking, "Well if I'd made a fuss, she might have lost her job ... " But that's just another kind of crap.

I went home and wrote "Tal's Tale." It didn't take long. I'd been reading some Norse mythology and skaldic poetry for (I think) one of Garroc's tales; maybe it was the novel, The Panther's Hoard. The framework of the story was all over my desk and in my head -- Wagnerian tales of outrageous vengeance just when I wanted to write a revenge story for the girl who had been taking crap at the check out line in the supermarket. That doesn't excuse my silence, but ... working through the story made me realize that I'll never keep quiet about something like that again.

So. "Tal's Tale" is a penance tale.

Yes, I've written other stories based on Norse mythology. Almost every one of Garroc's tales, the two novels and a handful of short stories. The most recent story is "The Oaths of Gods" in Lords of Swords. It has to do with Woden and Hel and how people can find their whole lives changed when they become entangled in the oaths gods swear to each other.

I'm fascinated by Woden (sometimes he's Odin or Wotan, depending on the story I'm writing) and the idea that he knows his fate, understands clearly that he will not win the battle between Light and Dark at the Ragnarok -- and that he must fight it, embrace his awful death so that the few gods who survive will seed a new world. And so he does, never flinching. He isn't a pleasant sort of god, but he is toweringly heroic. He figures in "Dvergrtal, or Intercourse With a Dwarf," the story of how he learns the shape of his doom. (And no, that title doesn't suggest what you think! It's intercourse as in conversation. Kinda fun to watch people's reaction, though when I mention it.)

Between those stories an a few others, I almost have enough to probably do my own Norse-theme anthology if anyone wanted to publish one. But I don't imagine that will happen. I think people are still, on some level, afraid of the stark tales told within a mythic Norse framework. Why? I don't know. My guess is that it's cultural. Our worst cuss words are words that used to be Anglo-Saxon words; the stories of Vikings sacking monasteries retain a "fright tale" aspect. When you think of all the popular fantasy being written, Norse-themed stories and novels probably aren't even a statistical blip.

In case you'd like to know more about my Norse stuff, here's the scoop:

"Hel's Daughter," Legends of the Pendragon, ed. James Lowder; Green Knight Publishing, 2002

"The Oaths of Gods," Lords of Swords, Pitch-Black Books, September 2005 (as Nancy Virginia Varian)

"Dvergrtal," Earth, Air, Fire, Water; ed. Margaret Weis; DAW Books, 1999

"Between Lightning and Thunder," Dragon Magazine No 138, October 1988

"Scatheling," Odyssey, Issue 6 September/October 1998; London, UK

Shadow of the Seventh Moon, Ace Books, 1991

The Panther's Hoard, Ace Books, 1994

How did you get involved in writing Dragonlance novels?

I really was in the right place at the right time for Dragonlance. I'd sold some short stories to Dragon Magazine and Amazing Stories in the late '80s. In those days TSR, Inc. owned both those magazines, and during that time, TSR's game/novel combo, Dragonlance, was taking off like a rocket. In the mid-80s Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, the Dragonlance fiction creative team, were getting ready to depart and the publisher naturally wanted to keep the winning line going. While the Legends trilogy was being released, TSR came up with the idea of a series of anthologies, each featuring stories set in the Dragonlance world. Because the books department liked my work in the magazines I got a shot at a short story in the first anthology. Then two stories in the second, another in the third. I think, as of today, there might be two Dragonlance anthologies I haven't written for, possibly three. Otherwise, I'm happy to show up when asked and when I can.

Anyway, from those first short stories came Stormblade, and six Dragonlance novels later, it's still my favorite of the books I've written for the line. It had the pleasure of seeing it reissued in a second edition this year, bless it's long-lived heart.

When did you create Garroc? Where has he appeared? Are there any new Garroc projects in the works?

When did I create Garroc . . . see above? Up there in the part where I was selling stories to Dragon and Amazing? That's when I created Garroc and Hinthan. "A Tale at Rilling's Inn" was my second professional sale, appearing in Amazing Stories in March 1987. "Between Lightning and Thunder," was published in Dragon a year later, and then "Cairn and Pyre" followed in Dragon in 1989. After that, I sold two novels having to do with Garroc and Hinthan to Ace; Shadow of the Seventh Moon in '91 and The Panther's Hoard in '94. The novels required me to really pin the setting, and so I rambled around looking for a clue and finding none until a good friend suggested that there is an awful lot of elbow room for fantasy in England's early Anglo Saxon period. It was like a bell ringing! He was absolutely right, and I spent a long, wonderful time researching the period. Along the way I fell in love with "Beowulf", acquired a shocking number of translations, and a veritable library on the subject of the grand old poem and Anglo Saxon poetry in general. In 1998 the guys returned to short fiction with "Scatheling," in the UK publication Odyssey. Given all the delicious research I did for the novels, I was delighted Garroc's tales made their return via a UK publication. Soon after, the story came home to be reprinted in Black Gate in the US.

What's up next for Garroc? I'm happy to say you'll find him and Hinthan making an appearance in Lords of Swords, the sword-and-sorcery themed anthology from PitchBlack Books. This tale, "The Oaths of Gods", cracks the larger story wide open, creating enough dark tension at the end to fuel the next part of the story arc for some time to come.

What do you think are the most important elements to remember when you're writing sword-and-sorcery?

Don't let the swords and the sorcery hide the story's heart. If the story has no heart, it's nothing but clanging steel and phosphorous.

Do you think sword-and-sorcery remains a viable genre? Why has it nearly disappeared? You once mentioned to me that you thought some of the 80s anthologies were bad for the genre as a whole--what about those anthologies was harmful to sword-and-sorcery?

I do think sword-and-sorcery can be a viable genre. I remember that conversation we had about the genre. I don't recall which anthologies I was talking about then, probably Thieves World or one of its kin; but it seems to me we were talking about heroic fantasy in general and sword-and-sorcery in particular. I think heroic (or high) fantasy has suffered from its popularity. The parade of one endless series after another, each volume a doorstop, has watered down the genre. I was struck by the guidelines for Sages and Swords in which the editor said he wanted no " . . . Tolkien-esque portrayals of Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, or other such fantasy clichés" I was thrilled to read that those fantasy clichés are rampant in the bookstores these days. Fantasy novels hit the bookstore running, promising that here is the first volume the next classic 12 volume bo-dee-oh-doh, and they look like they plan to go on forever, getting paler and paler with each volume.

I know there is a set of readers who just love that, the longer the better. Over the course of my career I've enjoyed writing for that audience. Dragonlance. . . well, I don't even know how to tell you how many books there are out there. If you count games, it goes into one hundred and beyond. It just keeps coming. But I stopped reading heroic fantasy for pleasure a long time ago, about the time I realized that nothing struck me as original anymore. I think that's due in part to the fact that publishers believe in "the law of what works, works, damn it!"; and many readers aren't as adventurous as you'd imagine. They like the cozy-comfy of familiar characters, familiar settings, familiar problems and the Good Old Quest. I'm not complaining; I'm the woman who read every one of the Brother Cadfael mysteries – many, many times. I know the dynamic. It just doesn’t work for me as a reader of heroic or high fantasy. Or at least, not as much as it used to work. I am subject to being charmed now and then.

As for what happened to the subgenre sword-and-sorcery, I don't think it's practiced as it used to be by writers like Fritz Leiber or Robert E. Howard. It's lost its edge. Okay, this is a plug, but – well, this is a plug. I suggest readers who haven't done so yet have a look at Lords of Swords. There is some interesting stuff there, stories by authors who understand that if it's going to be true sword-and-sorcery there have to be real stakes on the table. It's said that the essence of a good story, of any genre, is that the protagonist must have something real at stake; life, limb, mother, sister's honor, wife, his own honor, home, trust, nation, something valuable – and he must be changed by the end of the story. Something must be gained or lost and the protagonist will go forward from that point a different person. Return to status quo or anything close to status quo will kill a sword-and-sorcery story. There must be change, generally in this genre it is preferred that things get worse, or at least that the reader is presented with the hint of future trouble – while, of course, our heroes persevere.

This goes doubly for a sword-and-sorcery series, novels, or short stories. In my opinion, Fritz Leiber was the master. He wrote, he told stories, his characters grew and changed, shaped by often dark events. Leiber's personal background involved a deep immersion in Shakespeare, the plays, the acting. He knew what makes a good story good. No matter that Fafhrd and the Mouser got out of the present trouble, the getting out always planted the seeds for future trouble. These are vital stories, they that have life and grow because the author didn’t seem to be worried about protecting a franchise, making sure the reader returned to the characters as they first met them.

Not that I have any franchise to protect, but I did have a brush with this lesson after writing "Scatheling." Though it remains a pretty good story and I really like some of the things I did in it – the last part in particular where Scatheling meets his father; that's pure Garroc, the reason I write these tales – but I've come to think that "Scatheling" missed the mark. Well, it hit the mark I aimed at, but I didn't aim high enough. And so I wrote "The Oaths of Gods" determined to aim higher this time. I did, and I think I hit the mark. Not coincidentally, "The Oaths of Gods" provided a course correction for the overarching storyline of Garroc's Tales, which had been stalled for . . . ahem, a while, because I kept protecting my own version of the status quo.

What are your current writing projects?

After all that about sword-and-sorcery, I'm here to tell you that I've written a kids' book. A fantasy, fun one. I've learned some new things about storytelling, and it's been a good time. The publisher tells me it should be out in 2006. After I turn in the book, I'm back to writing Prince Heathen, a novel based on a medieval English ballad of the same name, and researching some more of my lady pirates book. Yes. Pirate ladies! It will take place in an era much closer to our time, the early 19th century. Swords but no sorcery, but it has the same sensibility – lots at stake, two half-sisters who are world-wanderers, definitely outsiders and living a fine adventurous life. One has a love in every port of call, or many, anyway; her sister. . . well, her sister's lover is the complicating thread of the story, a man seldom seen on stage but whose actions sometime drive the plot. Thing is, it's taking place in a time period I know just enough about to make really big mistakes, so I want to immerse myself in the history and the settings before I get serious about the pitch and proposal. And there's all that business about stern and starboard, fore and aft, mizzenmast and avast ye to learn.

Science fiction has often been used as a means to comment upon contemporary society--so too has fantasy fiction, although it is more often accused of being escapist fare. Do you think sword-and-sorcery is a good venue for social criticism?

Sword-and-sorcery done well can provide a setting for great "outsider" characters, men and women who live beyond the borders of societal norms, adventurers, outlaws, the half-mad, the god-driven. Poets, even. Such characters act as a lens through which we can see ourselves as others might. I played with that a bit in Shadow of the Seventh Moon and The Panther's Hoard. The first was informed by my move from New Jersey to North Carolina. That's a lovely state, from the Atlantic to the Blue Ridge home to some very nice people, and it's also a place where a Yankee is presented with experiences that make for some interesting reflection. The Panther's Hoard is a suggestion that as far a spiritual beliefs are concerned, live and let live isn't such a bad idea. At the time I wrote it the nation wasn't experiencing the religious upheavals it is now. I suppose that means the message has become more potent.

Who are your favorite classic fantasy and sword-and-sorcery writers? Did they have something that modern writers don't have?

Leiber and Dunsany leap immediately to mind. I used to say Tolkien, but I'm going to have to wait till images of the movies fade then revisit the books. It's muddled now for me, though the man will always have a place in my heart because he knew what Dwarfs are really all about. That almost makes him right with me over the "dwarves vs. dwarfs" issue. But Leiber and Dunsany, they are the epitome of what I think a good fantasy and sword-and-sorcery writer is: literate, recklessly inventive, in love with the language, possessing supreme confidence in their material and control of it. They had a taste for a walk on the dark side. Of course there are modern writers who get near that, Neil Gaiman, for one. I enjoyed American Gods and I know Michael Morcock touts him as one of the bright young writers of fantasy. I do enjoy his work sometimes, but I think he has a ways to go before I agree with Morcock on that. (By which time, he'll be up for bright elder light. . . ) In the main, the greats don't have too much competition these days.

Why don't you tell us a little more about your influences and life outside of writing.

Well, you know who some of my favorite authors are; others are Dickens, Jane Austin, A.S. Byatt, or at least her novel Possession. Did you know Louisa May Alcott wrote ghastly pot-boilers? Yes, the author of Little Women. When I say "ghastly" I mean it in both senses – horribly written, and the stories were deliciously bloodcurdling. I had a fling with them, right after I moved to New Mexico. I'm utterly in love with the Brownings, Robert and Elizabeth Barrett. I received a copy of a collection of their love letters a year or so ago and ever since I've been devouring their biographies, reading their correspondence with friends and family, their poetry – even Robert's, which can be quite . . . dense. And I've become fascinated by their son Pen, the only child of famous parents who has been judged by all and ever after to have failed to live up to his genes. But I think he's been sold short for nearly a century now.

I grew up in New Jersey, moved to North Carolina and lived there for about a dozen years, then moved to New Mexico where I live with the old friend I recently fell in love with. (See above, up around the part where a friend suggested there's a lot of room for fantasy in England's early Anglo-Saxon period. That guy, he is Doug Clark.) Two writers merged their libraries and are living happily ever after in a house that looks like . . . well, you know the apartment in the movie Finding Forrester? Wall to wall, floor to ceiling book cases, and as I type this Doug is doing the deal to have bookshelves put in the kitchen because we're kind of running out of space in other rooms.

So yes, even though I found myself diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis about a year after settling in, life is good. MS . . . ain't that a kick in the head? Some days it's worse than that. Most days, though, life is just what it's always been – life. I have all the time I want to write, good friends, a teaching job I truly enjoy, the man I love right down the hall pounding his own keyboard. Oh, and a red dog who is probably piled up on the bed treating my pillow as her own right now.

Yes, life is good.